Surprised just because that is new information to you or because you have a different view? I’m always up for conversation about the best dating of a book.
This is great, Jacob, a helpful work indeed! I wonder, though; why no Hesiod for #1 (Creation)? Of course, everything can’t be included, but Theogony seems to be essential in my estimation. Maybe I’m wrong, so would love to hear your thoughts behind that choice.
Wow, that is quite an overview of history, no wonder at times I feel like a spec. Just spent the day up in the forest bucking some trees down for heat and that felt exhausting. Rapping my brain around that list is staggering. But, thanks for posting it.
This is EXTREMELY cool. I’m early in the process of studying the great books (just finishing Herodotus) and am going to start using this as my guide. I love the idea of structuring the program chronologically in relation to the important events in world history. Thank you for putting this together!
I guess I was wondering about a resource that is more factual that helps weave all these points in history together? Or even that helps flush out these events? I get that you are coming at it from a literary perspective, the “Great Books” perspective. I am contemplating doing a self-study in the manner you have put forth, and would like to flush out the events a bit.
I do have some resources already, as I am a home educator, and approach that in a classical manner. You seem smarter than me, so I thought I would pick your brain. 🤷🏼♀️
About the seeming smarter...smoke and mirrors. Lol
Susan Weiss Bauer has a series called The Story of the World (4 volumes I think) which kind of weaves a narrative of world history and events. That might be the sort of thing you’re looking for. It’s written for upper grammar school age students so it’s not a tough read but a useful resource.
I may be able to do a PDF edition. I make pdf study guides available for paid subscribers. Free subscribers still get a lot of things just not usually in as nice of a format. I gotta work some sort of angle you know! 🤣
I wouldn't quite say I have a view, but I've always heard/read much later dates than the one you give here. I know it's not much of an authority, but Wikipedia says "Scholars generally agree that it was written between the 7th and 3rd centuries BCE."
There is a wide difference between dates given by unbelieving critical scholars and conservative Bible believing scholars. Lots of philosophical assumptions in the former about the impossibility of prophecy for instance.
Agreed, but I'm struggling to find any conversative Biblical scholars who date it before 1000 at the earliest. I'm curious what makes you date it so much earlier than that?
I think the story definitely dates back to the patriarchal era. Whether it was oral composition or written. Though I’m not a dispensationalist theologically I have always enjoyed Dr. Constable’s notes on Scripture (soniclight.com). Here is what he has to say on the matter:
“Concerning the time the events recorded took place, there have been many views, ranging from the patriarchal age of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (beginning about 2100 B.C.) to the second century B.C.
Internal evidence suggests that Job lived in the patriarchal period. The length of his life (he lived 140 years after his trials ended, 42:16) is similar to that of Terah (205 years), Abraham (175 years), Isaac (180 years), and Jacob (147 years). Lloyd Anderson believed that the length of Job's life argues for his living about 500 years before Abraham.[1] The writer measured Job's wealth in terms of his livestock. This is how Moses evaluated the wealth of Abraham and Jacob (1:3; 42:12; cf. Gen. 12:16; 13:2; 30:43; 32:5). The Sabeans and Chaldeans (1:15, 17) were nomads during the patriarchal period, but not later. The Hebrew word for "piece of money" (qesitah; 42:11) is found elsewhere only in connection with Jacob (Gen. 33:19; cf. Josh 24:32).[2] Job gave his daughters inheritances along with their brothers, which was not done under the Law of Moses (Job 42:15; cf. Num. 27:8).
Job was the priest of his family (1:5), a custom that became less common when nations in the ancient Near East developed more organization. Names of people and places in the book were also common in the patriarchal age (e.g., Sheba, Tema, Eliphaz, Uz, Job). Genesis, the Mari documents, and the Egyptian Execration texts, all of which refer to life in the Near East at this time, also refer to these names. The preference for the divine name Shaddai, over Yahweh, may indicate a period before the Exodus (cf. Exod. 3:14-15). Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown believed that Job is probably the oldest book in the world.[3]
"The idea that Job has an Edomite background is as old as the LXX [Septuagint], which equates Job with Jobab, king of Edom (Gn. 36:33)."[4]
"… the book of Job treats a fundamental question of our common humanity; and the poet has studiously taken his hero not from Israelitish history, but from extra-Israelitish tradition."[5]
If Job lived in the patriarchal period, as the evidence seems to suggest, what clues are there that someone did not write this book then, or very soon afterwards? The detailed recounting of the conversations that took place certainly suggests a composition date fairly close to that of the actual events. That has been the position of Jewish and Christian scholars for centuries. Critics point to the fact that oral tradition was very exact in the ancient world and that people could have transmitted Job's story by mouth for generations and retained its purity. With the Holy Spirit's superintending work it could have been, but there is no evidence that this is what happened.[6]
Literacy was widespread in the ancient world in the patriarchal period.[7] Critics of an early writing further point out that in the process of social evolution, composition of a work such as this book was more typical at a date much later than the patriarchal period.[8] Yet, again, there is no evidence that someone wrote it later. The simpler explanation is that someone wrote it early. Since there is no proof that someone wrote it later, many conservative scholars have continued to prefer the traditional early date of composition theory.
"Most recent writers [are not conservative and] are agreed that in its original form the book was of post-exilic origin, and the secondary parts of later composition."[9]
"Fortunately, nothing significant is at stake in our lack of knowledge of an author or a date of composition for the book."[10]
You bet! Be sure to check out the study guides we have on our substack! More going up all the time.
Glad to hear it!
I love how the individual books of the Bible are woven through this. VERY helpful!
Classical education is all about integration of information. 😁
Thank you for putting this together, this is very helpful and timely (pun intended) for me as I embark on a journey through the Great Books!
What about brave new world, especially considering we've got president warp speed readying the franken tubes.
I should add that one, for sure.
I'm surprised by your claim about the dating of Job
(and grateful that you laid the timeline out in such a clear and interesting way)
Surprised just because that is new information to you or because you have a different view? I’m always up for conversation about the best dating of a book.
This is great, Jacob, a helpful work indeed! I wonder, though; why no Hesiod for #1 (Creation)? Of course, everything can’t be included, but Theogony seems to be essential in my estimation. Maybe I’m wrong, so would love to hear your thoughts behind that choice.
It probably just needs to be added brother. This is a work I plan to continually add to.
Wow, that is quite an overview of history, no wonder at times I feel like a spec. Just spent the day up in the forest bucking some trees down for heat and that felt exhausting. Rapping my brain around that list is staggering. But, thanks for posting it.
It’s good and appropriate for us to feel small before great things.
Outstanding! Thank you!
This is EXTREMELY cool. I’m early in the process of studying the great books (just finishing Herodotus) and am going to start using this as my guide. I love the idea of structuring the program chronologically in relation to the important events in world history. Thank you for putting this together!
Ooohhh! One more question...any suggestions for a textbook-like spine to pull all the listed resources together?
Could you clarify for me a bit? I’m not sure quite what you’re looking for.
I guess I was wondering about a resource that is more factual that helps weave all these points in history together? Or even that helps flush out these events? I get that you are coming at it from a literary perspective, the “Great Books” perspective. I am contemplating doing a self-study in the manner you have put forth, and would like to flush out the events a bit.
I do have some resources already, as I am a home educator, and approach that in a classical manner. You seem smarter than me, so I thought I would pick your brain. 🤷🏼♀️
About the seeming smarter...smoke and mirrors. Lol
Susan Weiss Bauer has a series called The Story of the World (4 volumes I think) which kind of weaves a narrative of world history and events. That might be the sort of thing you’re looking for. It’s written for upper grammar school age students so it’s not a tough read but a useful resource.
I, too, appreciate this list! Thank you! Somehow printable? (asks someone who only accesses Substack on the app!)
I may be able to do a PDF edition. I make pdf study guides available for paid subscribers. Free subscribers still get a lot of things just not usually in as nice of a format. I gotta work some sort of angle you know! 🤣
Understood & very fair.
I wouldn't quite say I have a view, but I've always heard/read much later dates than the one you give here. I know it's not much of an authority, but Wikipedia says "Scholars generally agree that it was written between the 7th and 3rd centuries BCE."
There is a wide difference between dates given by unbelieving critical scholars and conservative Bible believing scholars. Lots of philosophical assumptions in the former about the impossibility of prophecy for instance.
Agreed, but I'm struggling to find any conversative Biblical scholars who date it before 1000 at the earliest. I'm curious what makes you date it so much earlier than that?
I think the story definitely dates back to the patriarchal era. Whether it was oral composition or written. Though I’m not a dispensationalist theologically I have always enjoyed Dr. Constable’s notes on Scripture (soniclight.com). Here is what he has to say on the matter:
“Concerning the time the events recorded took place, there have been many views, ranging from the patriarchal age of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (beginning about 2100 B.C.) to the second century B.C.
Internal evidence suggests that Job lived in the patriarchal period. The length of his life (he lived 140 years after his trials ended, 42:16) is similar to that of Terah (205 years), Abraham (175 years), Isaac (180 years), and Jacob (147 years). Lloyd Anderson believed that the length of Job's life argues for his living about 500 years before Abraham.[1] The writer measured Job's wealth in terms of his livestock. This is how Moses evaluated the wealth of Abraham and Jacob (1:3; 42:12; cf. Gen. 12:16; 13:2; 30:43; 32:5). The Sabeans and Chaldeans (1:15, 17) were nomads during the patriarchal period, but not later. The Hebrew word for "piece of money" (qesitah; 42:11) is found elsewhere only in connection with Jacob (Gen. 33:19; cf. Josh 24:32).[2] Job gave his daughters inheritances along with their brothers, which was not done under the Law of Moses (Job 42:15; cf. Num. 27:8).
Job was the priest of his family (1:5), a custom that became less common when nations in the ancient Near East developed more organization. Names of people and places in the book were also common in the patriarchal age (e.g., Sheba, Tema, Eliphaz, Uz, Job). Genesis, the Mari documents, and the Egyptian Execration texts, all of which refer to life in the Near East at this time, also refer to these names. The preference for the divine name Shaddai, over Yahweh, may indicate a period before the Exodus (cf. Exod. 3:14-15). Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown believed that Job is probably the oldest book in the world.[3]
"The idea that Job has an Edomite background is as old as the LXX [Septuagint], which equates Job with Jobab, king of Edom (Gn. 36:33)."[4]
"… the book of Job treats a fundamental question of our common humanity; and the poet has studiously taken his hero not from Israelitish history, but from extra-Israelitish tradition."[5]
If Job lived in the patriarchal period, as the evidence seems to suggest, what clues are there that someone did not write this book then, or very soon afterwards? The detailed recounting of the conversations that took place certainly suggests a composition date fairly close to that of the actual events. That has been the position of Jewish and Christian scholars for centuries. Critics point to the fact that oral tradition was very exact in the ancient world and that people could have transmitted Job's story by mouth for generations and retained its purity. With the Holy Spirit's superintending work it could have been, but there is no evidence that this is what happened.[6]
Literacy was widespread in the ancient world in the patriarchal period.[7] Critics of an early writing further point out that in the process of social evolution, composition of a work such as this book was more typical at a date much later than the patriarchal period.[8] Yet, again, there is no evidence that someone wrote it later. The simpler explanation is that someone wrote it early. Since there is no proof that someone wrote it later, many conservative scholars have continued to prefer the traditional early date of composition theory.
"Most recent writers [are not conservative and] are agreed that in its original form the book was of post-exilic origin, and the secondary parts of later composition."[9]
"Fortunately, nothing significant is at stake in our lack of knowledge of an author or a date of composition for the book."[10]
Thanks so much for these comments! Really helps me see why you favour such an early date.