It might also be worth noting that we are teaching children to read the Greco-Roman classics through a biblical and Christian lens. These works are not being read uncritically, or shouldn't be, but are being analyzed from the standpoint of a biblical and Trinitarian worldview. They also are worthwhile given that as pre-Enlightenment, pre-modern texts, they communicate a worldview that is much closer to that of the Bible than our modern framework and can help to expose naturalistic assumptions many modern readers have but might otherwise not recognize.
For me it's just fun to see when and where Scripture and pagan literature overlap. I also think the value of pagan literature comes from its depictions and archetypes of the human condition. We understand ourselves better if we know our past, pagan and theological.
Very good. I teach Humanities at a Catholic high school and I just spoke to my Freshmen students about this within the past week. We're preparing to read Aeschylus's great tragedy Agamemnon and we first discuss the disgusting history of the House of Atreus. It's rife with murder, cannibalism, rape, and incest. Why do we read this? Because the world is full of evil. Evil is an objective reality and it can't just effect you. It is in the world and will effect others. Our culture has a fascination with serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer, and in 1924 Leopold and Loeb captivated the nation with what they, in their hubris, believed to be the perfect crime. We've been living in this world all along, and we need to know what evil really is so that we can better instill ourselves with virtues to combat it.
To your point about demons, the sobering reality is that the same demons that wore the guises of the ancient gods are the demons still prowling about the world seeking the ruin of souls today.
Man is made in gods image, so there is such a thing as natural goodness just as there is such a thing as natural law. The pagans should not be dismissed out of hand since they are still a part of God's plan for salvation by the very fact that they exist and are intelligible to us. If we let goodness, truth and beauty guide us, we'll be okay.
Perhaps you know of it already, but a fantastic, fantastic book on this that both your friend and his student would like is Louis Markos’ The Myth Made Fact: Reading Greek and Roman Mythology through Christian Eyes. It will answer their questions and is a priceless resource for anyone learning those great myths.
Another reason, I suspect, would be sheer enjoyment and appreciation of the greats.
I also think there's a case for Christians reading some of the key works of modern (also pagan) literature that shaped the world we live in and shed light on why the West is self-imploding. Kate Chopin's 'The Awakening,' Ibsen's 'A Doll's House' for example.
Yes, I've also wrestled with such questions, especially of works involving a lot of sorcery and incantations such as Harry Potter.
Such works can be so captivating that we can consume them without much discernment, causing us to accept certain ideas they present which may be spiritually harmful as they may extol and promote certain practices that oppose Scriptures!
If we can read them critically without confusing ourselves in the process, all the better. If we find it bringing us to the place of embracing things that Scripture expressly forbid such as sorcery and idolatry, we had better be careful.
“I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. (1 Corinthians 6:12b NIV)
I agree with all your commentary, with one addition. The one thing unique about the Christian life is that we have the Holy Spirit to give help and guidance and comfort. So sometimes secular wisdom is unable, or unwilling, to tell us something God could tell us to do.
As a child, I read Greek mythology in addition to poetry. Then and now, I have wondered whether the Greeks really believed their gods or not, so this is good to know. It sounds like some were very serious about their gods. (Perhaps others were the way we are now with superheroes? We want to be like them, but we don't all believe they are real?)
I might write on this sometimes as a follow up. In the ancient world, perhaps not surprisingly, there was a diversity of views. Plato’s Euthyphro is a good place to see this because Euthyphro is an uncritical believer of the stories of the gods and Socrates is not. Also, various Roman emperors pressed hard to “revive” the worship of the gods during times when they perceived it to be waning (sometimes due to Christian influence). But for many Greeks Homer was kind of their Bible. The various philosophical schools (Epicureans, Stoics, Platonists, etc.) all had varying views on the gods or God. There were even a few atheists (though not many) in the ancient world.
Understanding human nature. Man has walked on the roads of Bimini, Between the pillars in the mediterranean and lived on land under the Arctic ice.
Most cultural references are from literature and tales. The archetypes of Humans, the archetypes of personality and person are within. The faults and imperfections of the gods and deities.
Never do any of the pagan tales tell of perfection, extremes of characters and traits. The most powerful, the most beautiful, the one tricked, the trickster, the gifted, the motherly, the one who travels between the worlds, the ones to rule the underworlds.
And then knowing such tales and even more modern folk and fairytales aids in understanding the monsters and demons within and without of man himself and to what ends people will go in their personal journeys.
We think of the world automated and fully lit. Electrified at night.
Thousands of years that was not always the case, for the majority of Human history. Winters were dark, Mini Ice ages happened, volcanoes plunged good portions of the world into dim light.
Man hunkered down and huddled and lived in perilous worlds of marauding bands, huns, legions of conquering nations and warring kingdoms serfdoms. The word ‘Slave’ comes from the Slav. A whole Euroasian group of peoples.
Many of the masses were illiterate and simple and toiled a daily life that was arduous of collecting water and goods, seeking and growing food and making or obtaining clothing and keeping yourself and family warm or cool.
And in the Northern parts the more extreme in seasons and weather created smaller groups scattered in geographically challenging lands, fertile but wxtreme elements.
The old shaman and seers of pre Christian Europe give glimpses into the battle on man and nature and the elements. Krampus and Sieda pass were not to celebrate the evil but to drive it out the evil nature of those who may not be mentally or emotionally or spiritually fit to entrant in the Alpine villages and settlements that would be trapped in winters long dark nights and within feet of snow, impassable and unyielding until Spring.
These tales and traditions were warped, just and many Christian ideals and scripture (430-663) may have been, once the powers took over the scripting and later printing (1440) and we have seen corruption in The Church and other Christian religions over the centuries since, from embedding itself on politics, conquests and banking, and greed to controlling masses with ignorance and fear.
Read it all, how could it not make your faith stronger and your understanding of what plays out deeper??
History repeats itself. And those who do not learn from it are doomed to repeat it.
Soon it will all meld into the end point. Even stripping down the Bible to just parables and stories, we can see a continuity of tales and legends persistent through out all cultures. Every culture, all of them, tell very similar stories and at the very least that Man was not here alone, nor was everything just an accident, and Man makes many errors and mistakes when they turn from duty and moral compasses that any religion can be, a societal rudder. All show purpose, many ancient writing tell of civilizations that have disappeared through greed, hubris, arrogance or lust of power or evil.
The Lament of Thoth, a tale of Mankind turning his back on Nature and Balance to his detriment.
The Navajo and other North American Tribes had a Great Spirit. Sounds a lot like Yahweh when you listen to elders speak, and there is an Elder who discusses their ancient practices, always with an Almighty. The Hopi prophecies. Because ancient peoples spoke in terms of animistic, animals or other personification of traits and peoples, does not mean they worshiped the ‘Devil’.
Now in Modern times I would propose (American Gods, Neil Gaiman) the new gods are different but the same, some are ancient demons or fallen ones to prey upon ignorance and arrogance and greed others are the consumers, the eaters of men from the inside out, sucking away our attention and energy.
The Gotthard Tunnel opening Ceremony is a great example. The Euro Games with the giant metal Bull. The ‘art’ and symbolism of some speaks volumes and be tells their hearts and motives. The Globalist are keepers of ancient evil ways, since those are the families who had pacts with these forces.
While much isn’t evil, it keeps a human’s spirit or soul trapped within a grid or fabric. Yoga, some third eye meditations, keep your soul trapped in the programmed mind within these grids ( high jacked by the dark ancients)
When Christians pray, hands are clasped, eyes are closed and heads downward, heart centered. We need this heart connection, our heart energy center. The connection to Love that is the Center of all creation, the spark of a big bang, ever expanding, Love Never Fails. God is Love. We are in his image. the capacity and sentience for spiritual consciousness.
It might also be worth noting that we are teaching children to read the Greco-Roman classics through a biblical and Christian lens. These works are not being read uncritically, or shouldn't be, but are being analyzed from the standpoint of a biblical and Trinitarian worldview. They also are worthwhile given that as pre-Enlightenment, pre-modern texts, they communicate a worldview that is much closer to that of the Bible than our modern framework and can help to expose naturalistic assumptions many modern readers have but might otherwise not recognize.
For me it's just fun to see when and where Scripture and pagan literature overlap. I also think the value of pagan literature comes from its depictions and archetypes of the human condition. We understand ourselves better if we know our past, pagan and theological.
Herodotus has several great points of contact with biblical-historical figures.
Very good. I teach Humanities at a Catholic high school and I just spoke to my Freshmen students about this within the past week. We're preparing to read Aeschylus's great tragedy Agamemnon and we first discuss the disgusting history of the House of Atreus. It's rife with murder, cannibalism, rape, and incest. Why do we read this? Because the world is full of evil. Evil is an objective reality and it can't just effect you. It is in the world and will effect others. Our culture has a fascination with serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer, and in 1924 Leopold and Loeb captivated the nation with what they, in their hubris, believed to be the perfect crime. We've been living in this world all along, and we need to know what evil really is so that we can better instill ourselves with virtues to combat it.
To your point about demons, the sobering reality is that the same demons that wore the guises of the ancient gods are the demons still prowling about the world seeking the ruin of souls today.
Man is made in gods image, so there is such a thing as natural goodness just as there is such a thing as natural law. The pagans should not be dismissed out of hand since they are still a part of God's plan for salvation by the very fact that they exist and are intelligible to us. If we let goodness, truth and beauty guide us, we'll be okay.
Good thoughts! Nice to meet you!
Perhaps you know of it already, but a fantastic, fantastic book on this that both your friend and his student would like is Louis Markos’ The Myth Made Fact: Reading Greek and Roman Mythology through Christian Eyes. It will answer their questions and is a priceless resource for anyone learning those great myths.
Great points and amen.
Another reason, I suspect, would be sheer enjoyment and appreciation of the greats.
I also think there's a case for Christians reading some of the key works of modern (also pagan) literature that shaped the world we live in and shed light on why the West is self-imploding. Kate Chopin's 'The Awakening,' Ibsen's 'A Doll's House' for example.
Tooting my own horn by saying that, haha.
I agree with you!
Yes, I've also wrestled with such questions, especially of works involving a lot of sorcery and incantations such as Harry Potter.
Such works can be so captivating that we can consume them without much discernment, causing us to accept certain ideas they present which may be spiritually harmful as they may extol and promote certain practices that oppose Scriptures!
If we can read them critically without confusing ourselves in the process, all the better. If we find it bringing us to the place of embracing things that Scripture expressly forbid such as sorcery and idolatry, we had better be careful.
“I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. (1 Corinthians 6:12b NIV)
Although most people don't see fairytales as equal to the Greek and Roman gods, I think Chesterton's comments about why we teach fairytales to our children applies. https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Tremendous_Trifles/Chapter_XVII
Absolutely!
My all time favorite pagan book is The Golden Ass. It's educational on so many levels and a very entertaining story.
I agree with all your commentary, with one addition. The one thing unique about the Christian life is that we have the Holy Spirit to give help and guidance and comfort. So sometimes secular wisdom is unable, or unwilling, to tell us something God could tell us to do.
As a child, I read Greek mythology in addition to poetry. Then and now, I have wondered whether the Greeks really believed their gods or not, so this is good to know. It sounds like some were very serious about their gods. (Perhaps others were the way we are now with superheroes? We want to be like them, but we don't all believe they are real?)
I might write on this sometimes as a follow up. In the ancient world, perhaps not surprisingly, there was a diversity of views. Plato’s Euthyphro is a good place to see this because Euthyphro is an uncritical believer of the stories of the gods and Socrates is not. Also, various Roman emperors pressed hard to “revive” the worship of the gods during times when they perceived it to be waning (sometimes due to Christian influence). But for many Greeks Homer was kind of their Bible. The various philosophical schools (Epicureans, Stoics, Platonists, etc.) all had varying views on the gods or God. There were even a few atheists (though not many) in the ancient world.
Thank you, Jacob. I will look forward to more on this topic when you have a chance.
Understanding human nature. Man has walked on the roads of Bimini, Between the pillars in the mediterranean and lived on land under the Arctic ice.
Most cultural references are from literature and tales. The archetypes of Humans, the archetypes of personality and person are within. The faults and imperfections of the gods and deities.
Never do any of the pagan tales tell of perfection, extremes of characters and traits. The most powerful, the most beautiful, the one tricked, the trickster, the gifted, the motherly, the one who travels between the worlds, the ones to rule the underworlds.
And then knowing such tales and even more modern folk and fairytales aids in understanding the monsters and demons within and without of man himself and to what ends people will go in their personal journeys.
We think of the world automated and fully lit. Electrified at night.
Thousands of years that was not always the case, for the majority of Human history. Winters were dark, Mini Ice ages happened, volcanoes plunged good portions of the world into dim light.
Man hunkered down and huddled and lived in perilous worlds of marauding bands, huns, legions of conquering nations and warring kingdoms serfdoms. The word ‘Slave’ comes from the Slav. A whole Euroasian group of peoples.
Many of the masses were illiterate and simple and toiled a daily life that was arduous of collecting water and goods, seeking and growing food and making or obtaining clothing and keeping yourself and family warm or cool.
And in the Northern parts the more extreme in seasons and weather created smaller groups scattered in geographically challenging lands, fertile but wxtreme elements.
The old shaman and seers of pre Christian Europe give glimpses into the battle on man and nature and the elements. Krampus and Sieda pass were not to celebrate the evil but to drive it out the evil nature of those who may not be mentally or emotionally or spiritually fit to entrant in the Alpine villages and settlements that would be trapped in winters long dark nights and within feet of snow, impassable and unyielding until Spring.
These tales and traditions were warped, just and many Christian ideals and scripture (430-663) may have been, once the powers took over the scripting and later printing (1440) and we have seen corruption in The Church and other Christian religions over the centuries since, from embedding itself on politics, conquests and banking, and greed to controlling masses with ignorance and fear.
Read it all, how could it not make your faith stronger and your understanding of what plays out deeper??
History repeats itself. And those who do not learn from it are doomed to repeat it.
Soon it will all meld into the end point. Even stripping down the Bible to just parables and stories, we can see a continuity of tales and legends persistent through out all cultures. Every culture, all of them, tell very similar stories and at the very least that Man was not here alone, nor was everything just an accident, and Man makes many errors and mistakes when they turn from duty and moral compasses that any religion can be, a societal rudder. All show purpose, many ancient writing tell of civilizations that have disappeared through greed, hubris, arrogance or lust of power or evil.
The Book of Enoch, the Coptic Bible, the Order of Malkizedek, the Lament of Thoth.
https://youtu.be/xvzZ56ZbWy8?si=ZF1X7OyE0F0rwdc8
The Lament of Thoth, a tale of Mankind turning his back on Nature and Balance to his detriment.
The Navajo and other North American Tribes had a Great Spirit. Sounds a lot like Yahweh when you listen to elders speak, and there is an Elder who discusses their ancient practices, always with an Almighty. The Hopi prophecies. Because ancient peoples spoke in terms of animistic, animals or other personification of traits and peoples, does not mean they worshiped the ‘Devil’.
Now in Modern times I would propose (American Gods, Neil Gaiman) the new gods are different but the same, some are ancient demons or fallen ones to prey upon ignorance and arrogance and greed others are the consumers, the eaters of men from the inside out, sucking away our attention and energy.
The Gotthard Tunnel opening Ceremony is a great example. The Euro Games with the giant metal Bull. The ‘art’ and symbolism of some speaks volumes and be tells their hearts and motives. The Globalist are keepers of ancient evil ways, since those are the families who had pacts with these forces.
While much isn’t evil, it keeps a human’s spirit or soul trapped within a grid or fabric. Yoga, some third eye meditations, keep your soul trapped in the programmed mind within these grids ( high jacked by the dark ancients)
When Christians pray, hands are clasped, eyes are closed and heads downward, heart centered. We need this heart connection, our heart energy center. The connection to Love that is the Center of all creation, the spark of a big bang, ever expanding, Love Never Fails. God is Love. We are in his image. the capacity and sentience for spiritual consciousness.