It might also be worth noting that we are teaching children to read the Greco-Roman classics through a biblical and Christian lens. These works are not being read uncritically, or shouldn't be, but are being analyzed from the standpoint of a biblical and Trinitarian worldview. They also are worthwhile given that as pre-Enlightenment, pre-modern texts, they communicate a worldview that is much closer to that of the Bible than our modern framework and can help to expose naturalistic assumptions many modern readers have but might otherwise not recognize.
Very good. I teach Humanities at a Catholic high school and I just spoke to my Freshmen students about this within the past week. We're preparing to read Aeschylus's great tragedy Agamemnon and we first discuss the disgusting history of the House of Atreus. It's rife with murder, cannibalism, rape, and incest. Why do we read this? Because the world is full of evil. Evil is an objective reality and it can't just effect you. It is in the world and will effect others. Our culture has a fascination with serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer, and in 1924 Leopold and Loeb captivated the nation with what they, in their hubris, believed to be the perfect crime. We've been living in this world all along, and we need to know what evil really is so that we can better instill ourselves with virtues to combat it.
To your point about demons, the sobering reality is that the same demons that wore the guises of the ancient gods are the demons still prowling about the world seeking the ruin of souls today.
Man is made in gods image, so there is such a thing as natural goodness just as there is such a thing as natural law. The pagans should not be dismissed out of hand since they are still a part of God's plan for salvation by the very fact that they exist and are intelligible to us. If we let goodness, truth and beauty guide us, we'll be okay.
Perhaps you know of it already, but a fantastic, fantastic book on this that both your friend and his student would like is Louis Markos’ The Myth Made Fact: Reading Greek and Roman Mythology through Christian Eyes. It will answer their questions and is a priceless resource for anyone learning those great myths.
Another reason, I suspect, would be sheer enjoyment and appreciation of the greats.
I also think there's a case for Christians reading some of the key works of modern (also pagan) literature that shaped the world we live in and shed light on why the West is self-imploding. Kate Chopin's 'The Awakening,' Ibsen's 'A Doll's House' for example.
For me it's just fun to see when and where Scripture and pagan literature overlap. I also think the value of pagan literature comes from its depictions and archetypes of the human condition. We understand ourselves better if we know our past, pagan and theological.
Another good reason to read pagan literature as well as Hindu, Buddhist and other (non Christian) literature is so that you are more well prepared to answer someone who asks: why us Christianity so great? Why is it the best? What about all other beliefs?
Yes, I've also wrestled with such questions, especially of works involving a lot of sorcery and incantations such as Harry Potter.
Such works can be so captivating that we can consume them without much discernment, causing us to accept certain ideas they present which may be spiritually harmful as they may extol and promote certain practices that oppose Scriptures!
If we can read them critically without confusing ourselves in the process, all the better. If we find it bringing us to the place of embracing things that Scripture expressly forbid such as sorcery and idolatry, we had better be careful.
“I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. (1 Corinthians 6:12b NIV)
There is a phenomenon taking place right now in Protestant institutions that accept the importance of teaching the great books. It might be called the Road to Rome. It would be great to know the conversion rates of students that participate in these programs.
Once you start reading Aristotle, you don't have to take Zwingli’s word for it anymore – you can understand Catholic theology yourself. Once you start reading Plato, it is obvious that you should read Augustine, and why not the other Church fathers and saints. Irenaeus, Origen, Jerome, Tertullian. Questions are raised about the sacraments and authority. Heads are scratched. Pastors don't understand it either, they only know strawmen arguments and can't reply properly.
I recently heard of a Reformed institution in which 40% of the faculty had converted after teaching a liberal arts program and one even left to found his own Catholic one.
Protestants fear anything that's not Scripture. It's not just because of the pagan thing though, it's because they fear and encounter with the tradition of their own church and where that may lead (not for everyone but for a decent amount of people).
It destroys the assumption that a reasonable, well-read person immersed in scripture and deeply faithful is not at risk of a conversion. It may be yoooouuu
I think the namby pampy evangelicals who have been taught in a low church contexts that look like starbucks are very susceptible to what you are saying, but not all of are of that kind. I've been reading church fathers for years and Plato and Aristotle and Augustine and Aquinas and Anselm and, and, and...
The thing is, I claim those early Christians as my owh heritage, I claim them all as my people. Up till the reformation your church history is my church history. Luther, Calvin, Knox, etc., they all were steeped in those same works and found much in them which fueled their fire for their position and resistance to what the Roman tradition had become. So, respectfully, I think we are not all such low hanging fruit. But those who have lived in ankle deep evangelicalism and are starving for a sense of history and tradition and beauty think that this is the only way to get it...yeah, they do convert like that. They don't even know about churches like mine which are Reformed and catholic, creed reciting, church father reading, Bible believing Christians and so they jump too far.
Now, all of that said, I respect you sir. I know we don't agree but I consider anyone sho can confess the Apostles and Nicene Creed with sincerity to be my brother. We have more in common than not. So read this in the spirit of brotherhood in Christ when I push back. Blessings.
That said, I would love to see a Reformed scholar and teacher of the great books give a lecture to students which confronts this head on. It wouldn't be about authority though, it would be about the Eucharist.
It would start with putting up pictures of the Ghent Alterpiece and School of Athens, and maybe the great Eucharistic cathedrals of Europe (e.g. Chartres) and giving the appropriate historical credence to the Eucharist as the traditional source and summit of the faith. Not as artefacts on themselves, but as representations of the focus of the church, the Body of Christ, for many centuries.
Then it would seek to demonstrate exactly how the Reformed view differs, concluding that these Christians were wrong and their ‘source and summit’ were illegitimate, and ask students to make their own conclusions about whether these artefacts are interesting but mostly irrelevant historical relics, heretical works of man to be avoided or something else
You're right, many Protestants won't convert! But some will. And this is why many are reluctant to read in the way you mentioned – because it opens them up to a potential conversion. This is the argument I am making, nothing more.
Even the ones who don't become much better at discussing pre-Reformation Church doctrine, however, which is necessary if you are teaching young people and want to teach them well – rather than, for example, pretending that theology started in the 1500s and that Catholic (‘Early Church’) interpretations of scripture are not worth steelmanning, exploring and debating.
Agree with your comment about shared history. However, I am not describing Christians who merely yearn for tradition, liturgy and orthodoxy. These do exist and people do make instinctual and aesthetic choices.
But I'm taking about a deliberate intellectual and spiritual undertaking that interrogates Reformed beliefs at their heart. Typically, only people who are very serious about God’s Word are doing this and that alone precludes a superficial choice as it gets into deeper stuff than liturgy.
Good morning Jacob. This is such a great post and I could not agree with you more when I was still teaching. I recommended books all the time that we’re not considered Christian, but knew they had a lot of things that they could teach the students that read them.
Really thankful that this teacher that you wrote the letter to and received from him reached out to you. I hope more teachers do the same, not only to you, but that everybody reaches out to everyone and help each other so that we can better help our students. I hope you have a great rest of the week and I sure hope that the great books are going well Grace and Peace, Richard
To the critics of pagan literature I usually point out that we are teaching our children to think and act like Christians.
We plunder the Egyptians, as has been noted, and we handle Sharp and Dangerous things in a controlled environment.
We do this to train the hands of our youths for real Spiritual war, which is dangerous. Once explained like this, most critics (who are usually the parents of students) come along joyfully.
I think there’s a lot of fascinating ways God revealed himself to the Greeks throughout the Trojan Cycle and prepared them to receive the Gospel, and am working on a book that explores this. Dante’s got some comments to this effect in Paradiso, effectively arguing that the grave of Troy became the cradle of the Church.
I agree with all your commentary, with one addition. The one thing unique about the Christian life is that we have the Holy Spirit to give help and guidance and comfort. So sometimes secular wisdom is unable, or unwilling, to tell us something God could tell us to do.
It might also be worth noting that we are teaching children to read the Greco-Roman classics through a biblical and Christian lens. These works are not being read uncritically, or shouldn't be, but are being analyzed from the standpoint of a biblical and Trinitarian worldview. They also are worthwhile given that as pre-Enlightenment, pre-modern texts, they communicate a worldview that is much closer to that of the Bible than our modern framework and can help to expose naturalistic assumptions many modern readers have but might otherwise not recognize.
Very good. I teach Humanities at a Catholic high school and I just spoke to my Freshmen students about this within the past week. We're preparing to read Aeschylus's great tragedy Agamemnon and we first discuss the disgusting history of the House of Atreus. It's rife with murder, cannibalism, rape, and incest. Why do we read this? Because the world is full of evil. Evil is an objective reality and it can't just effect you. It is in the world and will effect others. Our culture has a fascination with serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer, and in 1924 Leopold and Loeb captivated the nation with what they, in their hubris, believed to be the perfect crime. We've been living in this world all along, and we need to know what evil really is so that we can better instill ourselves with virtues to combat it.
To your point about demons, the sobering reality is that the same demons that wore the guises of the ancient gods are the demons still prowling about the world seeking the ruin of souls today.
Man is made in gods image, so there is such a thing as natural goodness just as there is such a thing as natural law. The pagans should not be dismissed out of hand since they are still a part of God's plan for salvation by the very fact that they exist and are intelligible to us. If we let goodness, truth and beauty guide us, we'll be okay.
Good thoughts! Nice to meet you!
Perhaps you know of it already, but a fantastic, fantastic book on this that both your friend and his student would like is Louis Markos’ The Myth Made Fact: Reading Greek and Roman Mythology through Christian Eyes. It will answer their questions and is a priceless resource for anyone learning those great myths.
I have this book and can second this recommendation.
Great points and amen.
Another reason, I suspect, would be sheer enjoyment and appreciation of the greats.
I also think there's a case for Christians reading some of the key works of modern (also pagan) literature that shaped the world we live in and shed light on why the West is self-imploding. Kate Chopin's 'The Awakening,' Ibsen's 'A Doll's House' for example.
Tooting my own horn by saying that, haha.
I agree with you!
For me it's just fun to see when and where Scripture and pagan literature overlap. I also think the value of pagan literature comes from its depictions and archetypes of the human condition. We understand ourselves better if we know our past, pagan and theological.
Herodotus has several great points of contact with biblical-historical figures.
Another good reason to read pagan literature as well as Hindu, Buddhist and other (non Christian) literature is so that you are more well prepared to answer someone who asks: why us Christianity so great? Why is it the best? What about all other beliefs?
Although most people don't see fairytales as equal to the Greek and Roman gods, I think Chesterton's comments about why we teach fairytales to our children applies. https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Tremendous_Trifles/Chapter_XVII
Absolutely!
Yes, I've also wrestled with such questions, especially of works involving a lot of sorcery and incantations such as Harry Potter.
Such works can be so captivating that we can consume them without much discernment, causing us to accept certain ideas they present which may be spiritually harmful as they may extol and promote certain practices that oppose Scriptures!
If we can read them critically without confusing ourselves in the process, all the better. If we find it bringing us to the place of embracing things that Scripture expressly forbid such as sorcery and idolatry, we had better be careful.
“I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. (1 Corinthians 6:12b NIV)
There is a phenomenon taking place right now in Protestant institutions that accept the importance of teaching the great books. It might be called the Road to Rome. It would be great to know the conversion rates of students that participate in these programs.
Once you start reading Aristotle, you don't have to take Zwingli’s word for it anymore – you can understand Catholic theology yourself. Once you start reading Plato, it is obvious that you should read Augustine, and why not the other Church fathers and saints. Irenaeus, Origen, Jerome, Tertullian. Questions are raised about the sacraments and authority. Heads are scratched. Pastors don't understand it either, they only know strawmen arguments and can't reply properly.
I recently heard of a Reformed institution in which 40% of the faculty had converted after teaching a liberal arts program and one even left to found his own Catholic one.
Protestants fear anything that's not Scripture. It's not just because of the pagan thing though, it's because they fear and encounter with the tradition of their own church and where that may lead (not for everyone but for a decent amount of people).
It destroys the assumption that a reasonable, well-read person immersed in scripture and deeply faithful is not at risk of a conversion. It may be yoooouuu
I'm shaking in my boots. lol
I think the namby pampy evangelicals who have been taught in a low church contexts that look like starbucks are very susceptible to what you are saying, but not all of are of that kind. I've been reading church fathers for years and Plato and Aristotle and Augustine and Aquinas and Anselm and, and, and...
The thing is, I claim those early Christians as my owh heritage, I claim them all as my people. Up till the reformation your church history is my church history. Luther, Calvin, Knox, etc., they all were steeped in those same works and found much in them which fueled their fire for their position and resistance to what the Roman tradition had become. So, respectfully, I think we are not all such low hanging fruit. But those who have lived in ankle deep evangelicalism and are starving for a sense of history and tradition and beauty think that this is the only way to get it...yeah, they do convert like that. They don't even know about churches like mine which are Reformed and catholic, creed reciting, church father reading, Bible believing Christians and so they jump too far.
Now, all of that said, I respect you sir. I know we don't agree but I consider anyone sho can confess the Apostles and Nicene Creed with sincerity to be my brother. We have more in common than not. So read this in the spirit of brotherhood in Christ when I push back. Blessings.
That said, I would love to see a Reformed scholar and teacher of the great books give a lecture to students which confronts this head on. It wouldn't be about authority though, it would be about the Eucharist.
It would start with putting up pictures of the Ghent Alterpiece and School of Athens, and maybe the great Eucharistic cathedrals of Europe (e.g. Chartres) and giving the appropriate historical credence to the Eucharist as the traditional source and summit of the faith. Not as artefacts on themselves, but as representations of the focus of the church, the Body of Christ, for many centuries.
Then it would seek to demonstrate exactly how the Reformed view differs, concluding that these Christians were wrong and their ‘source and summit’ were illegitimate, and ask students to make their own conclusions about whether these artefacts are interesting but mostly irrelevant historical relics, heretical works of man to be avoided or something else
You're right, many Protestants won't convert! But some will. And this is why many are reluctant to read in the way you mentioned – because it opens them up to a potential conversion. This is the argument I am making, nothing more.
Even the ones who don't become much better at discussing pre-Reformation Church doctrine, however, which is necessary if you are teaching young people and want to teach them well – rather than, for example, pretending that theology started in the 1500s and that Catholic (‘Early Church’) interpretations of scripture are not worth steelmanning, exploring and debating.
Agree with your comment about shared history. However, I am not describing Christians who merely yearn for tradition, liturgy and orthodoxy. These do exist and people do make instinctual and aesthetic choices.
But I'm taking about a deliberate intellectual and spiritual undertaking that interrogates Reformed beliefs at their heart. Typically, only people who are very serious about God’s Word are doing this and that alone precludes a superficial choice as it gets into deeper stuff than liturgy.
Pax et Bonum!
Good morning Jacob. This is such a great post and I could not agree with you more when I was still teaching. I recommended books all the time that we’re not considered Christian, but knew they had a lot of things that they could teach the students that read them.
Really thankful that this teacher that you wrote the letter to and received from him reached out to you. I hope more teachers do the same, not only to you, but that everybody reaches out to everyone and help each other so that we can better help our students. I hope you have a great rest of the week and I sure hope that the great books are going well Grace and Peace, Richard
To the critics of pagan literature I usually point out that we are teaching our children to think and act like Christians.
We plunder the Egyptians, as has been noted, and we handle Sharp and Dangerous things in a controlled environment.
We do this to train the hands of our youths for real Spiritual war, which is dangerous. Once explained like this, most critics (who are usually the parents of students) come along joyfully.
I think there’s a lot of fascinating ways God revealed himself to the Greeks throughout the Trojan Cycle and prepared them to receive the Gospel, and am working on a book that explores this. Dante’s got some comments to this effect in Paradiso, effectively arguing that the grave of Troy became the cradle of the Church.
So grateful for the gods/demons exposé. I’ve always missed this in reading Paul. And missed the point of reading pagans. Points!
Thanks!
this was excellent defiance for reading the classics
My all time favorite pagan book is The Golden Ass. It's educational on so many levels and a very entertaining story.
I agree with all your commentary, with one addition. The one thing unique about the Christian life is that we have the Holy Spirit to give help and guidance and comfort. So sometimes secular wisdom is unable, or unwilling, to tell us something God could tell us to do.